What happens? This still isnt anywhere near the strength of the coil spring, but its improving in the right direction. I wonder what it is that makes spring breakage a problem for some and not for others? This has already been done by machines such as the 3D printer, a device that would have been thought to be impossible a few decades ago. Uh okay. !? 1385 S M 75 - Boyne City, MI 49712 USA Here at European Springs we know how important springs are in everydays life. My boxes tend to get a hard life, playing in fairly loud ceilidh bands and outdoors for morris. Theo, what do you think? ry Cofz@a7N\|QHyy9b)we'!XEob/" I&"{3#e'cb"? This setup with two magnets is less than 2.8 inch-pounds (0.32 joules). 108 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[]/Index[93 22]/Info 92 0 R/Length 87/Prev 1157343/Root 94 0 R/Size 115/Type/XRef/W[1 3 1]>>stream All my other boxes still have their full complements of original springs. Then they took out the spring and put a few magnets where the spring should go. Industrial Magnetics, Inc. (Unfortunately very few know that.) probably increases your hit chance about as much as the gravitation between you and the bullet, magazine feed using magnets instead of springs. I agree springs are a perfectly good solution already. hRJ1y[7[ The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.. Don't try to cheat it unless you like the idea of the vixen I just mentioned biting you. 114 0 obj <>stream Besides, issues such as noise, unwanted vibrations and wear are also solved with magnetic springs because they are a silent as well as profitable technology. It worked like any pogo stick would. The spring constant (k) of our spring is about 8 lb/in. Compress the spring 1/2, and the force should be 4 lb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_keeper. If the magnets are stored alone, they should be fine indefinitely. Playing with it, something is obvious right away. Using our handy spring formula, we can predict that the initial force is about 8 lb/in x 0.538 = 4.3 lb. %PDF-1.7 % c24 realitypod ( I have however never done this conciously in order to prolong spring life! Even before we jump on the pogo stick, the start position has that spring compressed by about 0.538. Do you want that inside your gun? 2}w(HAd=RYAAv fKG We wanted to explore the differences in the behavior of springs vs. magnets. As an example anecdote: I have four medium-sized (0.5x2), cylindrical neodymium magnets that have been doing little other than sticking to each other in a drawer for years. 0 (or just plain amusement :-) ), . Magnets, on the other hand, obey the inverse square law. (888) 582-0822, TRAMP METAL GROUP: The temperature will also very slightly increase. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. How did that work? Polymagnet is a trademark of Correlated Magnetics Research. The title of the article asks if magnets can replace the spring in a pogo stick. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Each magnet repels any adjacent magnets. 6~v`LM1NX8#I\Xk"6Y+GkH=PJ^)LJ }L@0#qd~S8|_8O0iCdi ` # endstream endobj 98 0 obj <>stream A key measure of pogo stick performance is how much it shoots up into the air. Some observers have described the behavior of the spring Polymagnet as a contactless attachment, which is a unique property in the world of mechanical engineering. Thermal agitation and such would eat away at the magnetic domains and randomize them until they were gone. author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners". Theres also a video, you can check that out below. We noticed something that was odd about the maximum pull force when the magnets are fully compressed. No. The only spring I've ever broken in about 35 years of playing was a bass spring on a 2nd-hand Hohner 4-stop 1-row. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. In theory, yes. You dont get that nice, gradually increasing force of the coil spring. http://www.theshootersbox.com/DPM-Systems_c_859.html, metal shavings from anywhere getting stuck all over outside buffer tube. Not so. Magnetic springs offer a constant force over their entire working range and they dont need electricity at all. Now were getting even more force, but the overall travel is less than the old coil spring. Got me thinking. Magnets may show some use in target rifle trigger. Well, technically, entropy will cause the ordered magnetic domains to eventually fall into chaos, but thats on a hell of a time scale. As to whether the domains in that context self heal or even grow there, maybe someone at K&J Magnetics knows the answer. Should you use repelling magnets instead of a coil spring in your next device? Imagine a 15 lb miniature person standing on it. Why Fedora Decided To Give CC0 Licensed Code The Boot, Where Pollution Hits The Road: The Growing Environmental Hazard Of Rubber Tires, The Surprisingly Manual Process Of Building Automotive Wire Harnesses, Biomimetic Surfaces: Copying Nature To Deter Bacteria And Keep Ship Hulls Smooth. Id like to point out the pogo stick was testing in a planet sized magnetic field. hbbd```b``3@$-tL@d`*m"YH60$j@l)H h[X@m  These cookies do not store any personal information. Like a captured spring, why not captured magnets with or without an additional spring to prevent them from hitting each other and shattering. You will be emailed a one-time, temporary password. A little external force can provoke these changes so magnetic springs achieve high-speed motions using just the energy created by the magnetic fields instead of the gravitational field. However, you may visit "Cookie Settings" to provide a controlled consent. Also, based on their numerous YouTube videos, they are not beyond abusing a magnet or two for the purpose of science. When the field vanishes you will get a very small amount of power delivered to the load. We added a third magnet, alternating which way the polarity faces with each magnet. Your shop teacher was right. firearms are generally relatively simple devices why would you want to complicate it? Interestingly all magnets used to decay fairly quickly given the state-of-the-art tech back then. Below is a video demonstration and an animation of the Spring Polymagnet function. I have a mental bloch on the theory, but it strikes me that a "magnetic spring" involves a magnet under the button, and however small, this will add inertia to it. We had a number of scrap, 2" diameter RY046 ring magnets available, so that seemed like a good place to start. They printed out a 1/8th scale pogo stick, complete with a spring. I don't think this would be a good idea, especially in a steel pistol. begali paddle keys When it finally does, it increases very quickly! Numerical methods and computers need to be used to add up total effects between, say two 1 cm cube magnets with parallel magnetic axis. If 2 magnets repel with some force, 3 is a little less, but 4 is a little more 3, but 5 is a little less than 4, etc. When the inner poles of the inner array align with the south poles of the outer array, the magnetic spring applies zero torque and lies in a stable position. How Does The James Webb Telescope Phone Home? Then there's the matter of bulk material with the vast number of inter-mono-pole interactions. Is it possible? Instrument Design, Construction and Repair, Topic: Magnets instead of button springs (Read 9958 times), Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 07:53:53 PM, Quote from: squeezy on March 25, 2012, 08:44:37 PM, http://www.matitflutes.com/04keywork.html, Quote from: Theo on March 25, 2012, 10:37:20 PM, SimplePortal 2.3.5 2008-2012, SimplePortal. Don't know about the dirt where you guys are, but around here if you stick a magnet in the garden, it'll come out with little bits of iron ore on it. It worked well. You dont have to be a mathematician to see that the area under this magnet curve is substantially lower! Have you ever played with magnets as a kid and run one through the sand and watch it pick up "fuzzy stuff"? would they demagnetise with age and/or use or if doing nothing for long periods or do they keep their "charge" or whatever its called indefinately?? Design, Develop, And Produce Innovative Magnetic Products. FBIlK1;s#|dMU/*%[M{v\3v~)?\ We compressed a bunch of magnets in a stack, varying the number of magnets. Ficara has added a new project titled 125KHz tag reader and contactless lock. Were not going to focus on these comparisons here. They do not have a bias to align, so they must be mechanically constrained to perform properly. Magnets, on the other hand, obey the inverse square law. vBulletin v3.8.11, Copyright 2000-2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc. Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs? For a pogo stick, it's pretty clear that magnets are not a good choice. Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C. That drives home the problem we face -- the repelling magnet setup doesn't have nearly as much travel as the coil spring. Ive got a simple solution. The energy in this compressed pogo stick is equal to the area under the spring curve. i dont get it what dose he need the magnets for? K&J Magnetics, Inc. will process your credit card order quickly, easily and securely. Not only doesnt it feel right, it doesnt perform well either. We got our hands on an old coil-spring pogo stick and measured the strength of its spring. There could be interactions? This is *FAR* from simple and not at all analytical. (and using diamagnetic material is not cheating, you are just playing a different game outside the scope of Earnshaw's theorem), It should come as no surprise that when you look at the I-Beam in my basement ceiling in my workshop, first you see the magnets, then the I-Beam because of the level of coverage. STANDARD SHIPPING: This product usually ships from our facility within 2-3 business days. Attempted solution: Place large magnet in moving portion. Otherwise you are relying on the repulsion of the under-button magnet to hold it shut when at its weakest (ie when the N and S are furthest away) . (888) 582-0823, MAG-MATE GROUP: Enter the email address associated with your Amazing Magnets account. neo magnets lose strength as they are heated, so they wouldn't work in a gun. Spring Polymagnets are produced in matched pairs and rest at an equilibrium distance apart. Spring pairs can serve as a vibration isolation device acting as an efficient low-pass filter across a range of frequencies and mass. Spring polymagnets work in pairs to simulate the functionality of a spring with compression and tension forces. ???? Interesting idea. The magnetic springs, on the other hand, simply use the energy stored in the magnetic fields so they can achieve incredibly speeds consuming very little energy when compared to a conventional motor. How can we do this? Its very weak, and doesnt start increasing until close to the end. The combined fields created by the domains within the magnet were actually able reinforce each other and keep each other stable making them harder. But if youre thinking theres some kind of energy in magnets, that gets used up, and were then about to make the next step to perpetual motion machines via the idea that a fridge magnet can defy gravity seemingly for years without needing a power source, then no. Copyright 2007-2022 - Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - All Rights Reserved. We constructed a small contraption that stacked them together on threaded rod, repelling with a lot of force. Learn more. Fit inside a 3D-printed holder we made, we can bounce our miniature pogo stick. With four magnets, the fully compressed magnets are about the same height as the fully compressed coil spring. This pattern turned up in a number of different scenarios we tried, beyond the one shown here. High-strength magnets are very fragile and also lose power at temperatures above 175 F. That's got to be one of the dumbest ideas I've seen in a while. )* and should be listened to! With magnetic technology constantly developing, magnetic springs might end up by transforming the engineering world of the future. You can extract it*, and then the magnet will need to be remagnetized. Such magnets are known as soft magnets and that was all we had for some time. I agree about the issue of adjusting for playing style, but since only fairly serious players bother I think that it could be a workable solution. Please be kind and respectful to help make the comments section excellent. Thats a lot weaker! View Full Version : Why aren't there magnetic recoil "springs?". ]=ccoX,T . 93 0 obj <> endobj Vibration isolation enables noise and vibration reduction with a wide range of potential applications. :-). Later we figured out how to make stronger ones and along with that strength came a special bonus. I thought about that too Lester. Its easy to predict. Magnetic keepers (you see them mostly on old horseshoe magnets) wouldnt be necessary otherwise. The force follows a simple, linear equation: The force (F) equals the spring constant (k) multiplied by the distance the spring is compressed (x). Spring Polymagnets behave like a magnetic spring. The products listed with the QuickShip Icon are available for SAME DAY SHIPPING. Magnets are more expensive than coil springs, but you can have them act across an air gap. Is it the start of a good pogo stick replacement? The truth about magnets is an elusive and demanding harlot of a vixen, but *SO* very seductive, inciting you into trying all kinds of crazy things. Heat and Vibration are enemies of magnets. Ficara has added details to 125KHz tag reader and contactless lock. %%EOF No, no more than gravity decreases with time. We took a 2.938 long spring and squished it into an opening that was only 2.4. There are many of pros and cons using springy magnets in such situations. endstream endobj 94 0 obj <>>> endobj 95 0 obj <> endobj 96 0 obj <>/MediaBox[0 0 595 842]/Parent 91 0 R/Resources<>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageC/ImageI]/XObject<>>>/Rotate 0/Type/Page>> endobj 97 0 obj <>stream Magnets would obey the inverse square if there were magnetic monopoles. For our pogo stick where we want to spread the force over a long springy distance, the coil spring is better. qmIwrmik]CCh6K?H@ r JEQ6r{> Y9yA is it to hold to the gun or is it to do with the actual mag? We really only feel the repulsion force when the magnets get close together. Any one out there experience this? Theres a difference between a linear relationship and and exponential relationship. V}(}X e7l#zb`If!s5@1 Its still not the same as the old spring, but the force is similar. Can Magnets Replace The Spring In A Pogo Stick? To evaluate the strength of this two-magnet system, we simulated and experimentally measured the forces. Fax: (231) 582-0622 The solution is to preload the spring. As we add more and more magnets, the thickness of the magnets limits the overall travel of the stick. All orders placed & paid online by 1PM ET (M-F) will be shipped the same day! harvey leibal We don't know. ". Festeezio liked DIY Beam-on-Target Fusion Particle Accelerator. I most definitely do not understand magnets at all and am full of admiration for those that do. My intuition suggests you would have a more controllable and positive-feel set up if, as well as the magnet under the button to repel/push it back up, you also have a magnet on the pallet board to pull it shut/keep it shut. Emilio P.G. We calculated that the force at the full 7" travel is over 500 lb! I was playing with some hellishly strong neodium magnets (salvaged from some hard drives) and I was thinking why aren't magnets used instead of recoils springs? lbl That said there are a lot of different kind of magnets nowadays. Thats not fair to the spring, though, since the next half-inch of travel doubles the energy it stores. With those youll move through such a small portion of the field it will appear linear. The answer, of course, is no, but it does provide a fascinating look at linear versus exponential growth. Can we remove the spring and replace it with some powerful repelling magnets? This form collects your name, email, company name, phone number and your enquiry so that one of our team can communicate with you and provide assistance. For a pogo stick, we dont want the spring to start with zero force. The benefits would be more craziness due to variable and adjustable characteristics. By using our website and services, you expressly agree to the placement of our performance, functionality and advertising cookies. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. A pogo stick is simply a spring with a set of handles and footholds that is the subject of a great number of hilarious YouTube videos, at least one of which is impressive. A 3D-printed, 1/8 Scale Model of a Pogo Stick, Preloaded Coil Spring, Force vs. Magnets do impose fields upon each other so I suppose if the imposed fields are stronger than the hardness of the magnets, it could weaken them. Check out our spring catalogue and if you have a visionary project in mind contact us so we help you design your perfect spring. I think that Sandy's point is a good one. Hot necessarily under the button, it could be under the lever but closer to the axle, where movement is less and magnet could be smaller. If the magnets are pulled apart, they try to pull together. :-) ). To investigate this topic in more detail without a lot of expensive and dangerously powerful magnets, we created a small scale model, roughly 1/8 the size. This is really another way of asking how much energy is stored in the spring. Are permanent magnets really permanent? Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) We probably should have chosen a more pro-magnet application! We are now required to collect sales tax in several states. If you go to 2, you expect 16 lb. The magnet force doesnt increase in a straight line like the spring. Hooke's law is a principle of physics that states that the force needed to extend or compress a spring by some distance is proportional to that distance. :E,e/E!7NhY(Ab+b_Ka|Sl^F`1*C4d>Cu6 &c/jD[=^K|]h{!v[;Atzyf}e:z1(Bm8}qd`3h:ZVhz;D8w&vm@Z'OJh6Ax;6*c^Dt9W{c/"P`d3^@55h-` g? KC^qJ6(BN]FK$! If your spring application needs a tight range where the force is delivered, magnets might be great. High School Shop class told us, Electrolytes, Theyre What Dehydrated Hackaday Writers Crave! Get HUUGE Planet sized magnets. This describes how much force you can expect as you push down on the spring. 5h 1BsODI-i#' ]l);-1"4 Interesting idea, but has anyone thought about the. Our adult weight compressed it by about 2". uP9bA yLVflJ",R~1f Might make a box slower. As a coil spring is squished, the force increases. Industrial Magnetics and Making Things Better are Registered Trademarks of Industrial Magnetics, Inc. Magnetic springs provide high-speed motion using minimal energy, so they could be the perfect substitute for motors. I just learned along the way that magnetic field follow inverse cubed relationship rather than inverse squared. You are touching on a concept about magnets called hardness. I don't see any benefit for recoil spring replacement, but I've had them in paintball gun trigger return, interesting feel, I liked it. As we add more magnets to the stack, the maximum pull force alternates up and down. The more magnets we add, the less travel we get in the pogo stick. I think there are 2 main variables - the strength (size) of magnets used in the first place, and their distance from each other. Now lets replace the spring with two repelling, 3/4" O.D. A place for general potato gun questions and discussions. Ill admit I like my magnets too much to do much studying about what happens when you abuse them but theres lots to know and learn there. We want there to be some force right at the beginning of the travel. Robert Kardos liked IS31FL3741 Breakout Board (PMOD). Besides, I dont think exponential means what you think it means. We are all worms, but I do believe I am a glow worm. The forces involved in a real pogo stick are quite powerful, pushing with many hundreds of pounds of force. Please check our Privacy Policy to see what we'll do with your information. :-) It is true that at the force between magnetic mono-poles does respect the inverse square law, there effectively is no such thing as a lone magnetic mono-pole so if you are going to think about a North mono-pole you must also think about its mated South mono-pole and of course if you are going to talk about the forces between objects you will need another pair of mono-poles to interact with. If you squish this spring by 1, you expect the force to be 8 lb. Common sense says yes. Why is this so? x 1/4" I.D. Can it be done? If a problem is worth solving, its worth solving wrongly, so more magnets were added. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Yeah. Some have higher Currie points than others (the temperature at which a magnet looses its magnetism) Physical agitation as well as heat pound at the borders and potentially fragment magnetic domains within the magnet. it probably uses neodymium magnets nice but doesn't it increase the chance of getting hit if your enemy uses bullets with steel core ? Distance, where the energy in the spring is shown by the area under the line. Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#. Well, it bottomed out and was an immensely disappointing pogo stick. Betteridges law of headlines states that any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no. As with so many magnet answers, it depends. . We found that repelling magnets are very different compared to springs. Does their repulsive force diminish with time? I think rsrocket1's objections are valid. Easy. Its weaker in the first 3/4 of travel, then gets stronger at the end. Theo "really understands" magnets (and melodeons! I'm going to guess it is a cost factor. (Scientists like to apply the Ising model to describe this dynamic which is appropriate for the most part. They are made by two pieces: a stator and a slider. Any cookies that may not be particularly necessary for the website to function and is used specifically to collect user personal data via analytics, ads, other embedded contents are termed as non-necessary cookies. Add more magnets. I think the main difficulty will be having them repelling enough to keep the pallets from opening under normal bellows pressures (I have this problem with some spring-equipped boxes with a light touch). Sr8xJ Magnets arent a one-to-one replacement magnets behave differently than springs. Place cylindrical magnet around moving portion. If the magnet isnt magnetically hard enough the damage could be substantial. I personally think i, taking into account the added weight & probably cost - all those magnets produced in relatively small quantities would not come as cheap as 'standard' size magnets produced by the million. Local: (231) 582-3100 In over 50 years of playing a veriety of boxes I have never broke a spring so reliability does not seem to be a problem for me anyway. By the way, just to save some pain and suffering, Earnshaw's theorem is not only proven mathematically, it is also demonstrated in reality as well. We'd obviously use non magnetic material for the lever etc, but I have just a slight niggle about all these N/S poles in close proximity. Learn how your comment data is processed. x 1/4" thick RC44 ring magnets. Spring Polymagnets do not automatically align so they must be constrained and centered with respect to each other to perform properly. I had a paintball gun that used stackable magnets as a trigger return spring, as it was very easy to configure trigger tension and feel this way. If the world knew just how much playing around with magnets and simulations of magnets Ive done, they would consider putting me away until they realized Im not doing anything dangerous. Four, five, and six magnets were added to the model pogo stick, and while six magnets gave this model pogo enough force to be bouncy, there simply wasnt enough space for the pogo stick to compress. In practicenot necessarily. How much of a magnetic field a permanent magnet can tolerate is dependent on the material its made out of. Remember what we said about the energy being the area under the curve? The takeaway from this experiment is extremely obvious in retrospect, but probably too subtle for a lot of people. Do they give you the performance you want where you need it? Higher speed implies a bigger motor, which in turn will consume more energy and cost much more. Some benefits I see would be more precise (maybe) customization of "spring rates". vI Hv7P}@aIPFt3|gPAD%N|]=lV/X1Hwuc|~v[LCBm^;*>\x)lnF_mMn7n ~ ^s?[5f=MqU[O They will rest at a defined distance apart from each other, repel when pushed together and attract when pulled apart. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. No, it is not. Maybe he's never heard "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". These Smart-Mag units hover at an equilibrium distance in space. Festeezio liked DIY Watch with WiFi and Audio. However, if theyre stored in the presence of other magnetic fields, they can be degraded, depending on how strong those fields are. The flute example that I gave shows that the theory is fine but then on a flute, the pads are push closed, rather than push open. I've no idea how old that box is - I'm still playing it after owning it for over 25 years and never had another spring breakage. endstream endobj startxref Heat the magnet above the curie temperature. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. So the absolute minimum number of points in any magnetic analysis is four mono-poles (two N and two S) If you double the distance between each pair, you do cut the forces between them by a quarter (assuming the distance between mated mono-poles is <<<<< the distance between magnetic pairs) but the cancelling effect from distant opposite mono-poles being further away also comes into play taking a k/(d^2) equation and more or less converting it to a k/(d^3) equation. G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B/E Koch. Industrial Magnetics, Inc. - Making Things Better, Home / Mag-Mate / Smart-Mags / Spring Magnets. This causes some partial demagnetization of the stator, reducing the maximum torque the motor can produce. How far will he shoot up when the spring is released? When fully compressed, the coil spring had a total energy of about 14.6 inch-pounds (1.65 joules). Emilio P.G. So we come to this fascinating case of native content(amusing, veiled advertising) from a store that sells really, really powerful magnets. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Spring Polymagnets are available for purchase in the Polymagnet Catalog in a range of sizes and configurations that exhibit different attach and repel strengths and with different resting points. Preloaded Coil Spring, Force vs. Lets review how springs work before exploring how magnets are different from springs. What can we do to increase the strength, especially over a greater portion of the travel? With a coiled spring the force is constant over the distance of compression. Festeezio liked Homebrew space exploration program. (Comment Policy). Email: imi@magnetics.com, AUTOMATION GROUP: At least springs don't have to "move", just compress. As another example: The reason you shouldnt take a stepper motor apart is because theres a very good chance that youll get the permanently magnetized stator too close to the rotor. But that needs power and probably much power. (888) 582-0821, WALKER MAGNETICS: Why? Another unique attribute of spring Polymagnets is that they dampen vibrations from one magnet to the other. Re: "It's been my personal experience that the force actually increases over the length of compressing a coil spring.". The two gaps in the middle look smaller than the outer gaps. Hmm, yes, cost would be more for sure.

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